Why “Make Me A Sandwich” Needs to Go, Like Since Yesterday

Sit down kids, I have a story for you.

I got invited the other night to do a retro raid with a good friend of mine’s guild. We were both pretty bored, so off to Naxxramas we went. We start plowing into trash and the raid leader (who is also someone I know) asked for someone to pull the damage reduction buffs off some of the mobs. I, being an eternal jokester, make some crack like “what do I look like, a servant” but happily do it anyways. Shortly after, one of the other guildmates on the run asks, “Well then, can you go to the kitchen and make me a sandwich?”

Imagine a record scratch here. I was on Mumble with my friend so he was the only one that heard the neck snap and string of expletives that followed. I was like “Um, what the fuck? Is he asking for a severe tongue lashing?!” My friend immediately got angry and embarrassed as hell, with good reason. He had spent time talking before about how nice this guildmate was, how well-liked and funny they were. And here  they were being about as subtle and annoying as a textbook Redditor. I hadn’t even realized he knew I was a woman. I swallowed my blatant rage and asked politely if we could skip making more sandwich jokes.

That’s where it ended right?

Nope, a minute or two later, another guildmate of my friend asked, “Well if he’s not getting a sandwich, can I get one?” The raid leader said jokingly, “No, you’re probably going to get an ass kicking.”

I spent the rest of the raid feeling like shit. My friend did too, mostly because he had basically assumed his guild would be nice to someone they didn’t know.

Let’s face it – this is a problem. As far back as I can remember while playing World of Warcraft, the easiest way to get some woman’s goat when it’s finally revealed that they are a lady was to rattle some variation of “Make me a sandwich/Get back in the kitchen” joke. Trust me, if you’ve made that joke, you’re not original. You’re not funny. You’re not the 10th, 20th or even 100th person to say that. It’s disrespectful and moreover, it’s sexist.

Unlike so many of the sexist jokes that are out there, I find this one in particular that most alienating and boggling. Women are getting into gaming in droves now, whether it’s casual Facebook games or being on your Call of Duty squad. World of Warcraft has a fairly even split of men and women now, if current numbers are to be believed. There’s no reason to NOT accept that at any given moment, you’ll be surrounded by women, whether they choose to reveal this to you or not. And a lot of times, a lot of them won’t. It’s pretty hard to deal with the fact that every time we are “discovered” or whether we come right out and correct pronouns, there’s a very high risk that it will entail people saying shitty things to us. So despite that fact that we are fairly legion in gaming now, gaming culture is still slanted away from us. It still feels, in a lot of ways, that it is a “man’s world.” So this is why making a “get back in the kitchen” joke is so injurious and ironic to me – not only is gaming rife with women now, but goes against the idea that gamer men truly want us to share a hobby with them.

So what am I really trying to say?

When you make a joke like that, you are saying that not only are women lesser than you (only valuable for creating and procuring food for you), but that they don’t belong in your video games. It’s one thing to denigrate a woman in a video game as being a terrible player, but the whole crux of the sandwich joke is basically saying that this isn’t even a place she should be. Do you really want a Warcraft devoid of women? They make up your raids, your dungeons, your guilds. They have your back in PVP. They organize your guild bank. They are community managers, raid leaders, guild leaders, auction house barons, ranked arena players and more importantly, some of your friends. Is this the kind of message you want to be making?

In case you haven’t been paying attention to my blog, the things we say are important. Even jokes. The source of humor very often has roots deep in truths and the reason jokes happen is that the joke reveals a change against the expectations of the audience. Making a sexist joke stands out because an audience will assume at least some level of parity between women and men and the punchline is that, HA! GOTCHA, you’re not equal to men, you’re good for cooking and crying at soap operas. It’s hurtful.

I guess that is my naive question, then: why do you want to say something that hurts someone else? Even if you don’t intend to, what drives people to say this shit to not only a mixed audience, but people they don’t even know other than them presumably being a woman? There’s a lot of reasons, but a lot of it has to do with the fact that most of the people making these jokes have never had to feel the sting of being excluded (oh wait, aren’t they nerds?) It also has to do with the fact that they don’t even question that they have the privilege to say such things without thinking about what it even means. Hey! You! When you make a joke you think is funny, you’re actually telling another human being that they don’t matter! You’re a shitbag whether this was your intention or not. You’re embarrassing to your friends who know better. Why don’t you try being a decent person and stop quibbling about how words are words and none of them are offensive to you with the insipid blindness that you have never felt dehumanized.

You need to really stop telling women to make sandwiches. Make your own goddamn sandwich, you giant manchild. We need to stop thinking that women don’t belong in the gaming world, because we do. We are here, we’re not going anywhere and we’re going to keep being visible as women.  If you tell me to get back in the kitchen again, next time I’m bringing back a meat tenderizer.

 

58 Responses

  1. Oh great googly moogly. The hells is wrong with some buggers’ brains? STFU and make yer own fluggernubbin’ sammich and stop bein’ a dick.

    Yes, it needs fer ta go. And it needs fer more guys ta man up an’ say “dude, knock it off.” Is just as much in our interest as it be in the wimmenz.

  2. I’m sorry you thought I was joking when I said the ass kicking line. That was my way of trying to say “STFU about this stupid topic because she doesn’t find it funny” without bringing the raid to a screeching, uncomfortable halt. We had already said in /g to knock it off so I was surprised to see it pop up again. Sorry it wasn’t a fun raid for you.

    • In my personal experience, a simple statement of “uncool dude, knock it off” works a lot better, since you’re clearly not trying to join in on the joking, and anyone that wants to bring the raid to a halt over that should probably sit that one out anyway. I’ve never actually had a firm but level-headed correction go pear-shaped, though.

      • I’ve had a firm but level-headed correction go pear-shaped. I said “please don’t use that offensive term” which escalated into me being harassed as a drama whore so that I ended up leaving the guild. And this was a day 1 guild that prided itself on being “drama free”. Yeah.

    • Why did you find it acceptable to handle the offender with kid gloves when he was making clearly sexist, hateful statements like that? Maybe he NEEDED to be brought to an “screeching, uncomfortable” halt. He certainly did just that to your female guest. Nice way to treat someone. You may not find it funny, but you don’t “really” care to do too much about the sexist problem, which makes you part of it.

  3. This bugs me SO MUCH! And none of the guys I’ve told to stfu have ever understood why I had, and I quote, “sand in my vagina”. Oh I don’t know? Maybe being singled out as being different and generalised into a category of people who have no power over what they do and are only useful for one thing is actually a little annoying and callous?

      • Indeed. I always like my partner’s response of, “Sod that! She’s a shit cook!” It still stings when people “jokingly” make you feel that small but it’s nice to have somebody on your side. I really do make shit sandwiches.

        • hmm, maybe that would be a good reply on occasion; i.e. “here is your shit sandwich, now enjoy it dude”.

          Probably not, but still I reckon such sexist tools don’t deserve much more than that. Women have always played an important role in my guild, from the very beginning, Officers and members alike. At times our guild has had a female in the Guild Leader role (twice now, same woman and the best GL I have ever had). Me and her have alternated in that role twice now. The single best recruiter we have ever had is female, with a strong eye for making good choices in who to bring in and who to exclude. I could go on, but suffice to say that women are bad, poor, good or great on their own merit with nothing relating to gender to influence that.

      • As I said on Twitter (@ClayLevering) – I certainly see the context being sexist, but the joke has never been about the woman to me, always about the Sudo

        The joke they were making was sexist, simply “get me a sandwich” – but the real joke they may not understand is the concept of engineers failing to understand the concept of not simply just being able to workaround an argument from a source. Sudo == End of argument or error message.

        • Yeah, I think we get what the comic was talking about (which is not really relevant to the discussion even) but the joke is still sexist, meaning we should stop using it.

          • The joke itself, when the proper format is used, is not sexist in any way – Find me a gender on either of the original XKCD toons (http://xkcd.com/149/ for reference).

            It’s not a joke about sex, or a joke about women, or the kitchen even. The joke is only about user permissions. Anyone using it in the context YOU are having an issue with is – yes – promoting a sexist mentality. But both you and the raiders you talk about used a joke out of context and without the true meaning.

            The original joke can be used on either gender equally – and is highly funny to those who get the joke itself. Perhaps instead of telling people to stop using a joke entirely (based on poor execution), you might have addressed more quickly the true issue (and the one I agree with) – sensitivity to gender roles within the modern gaming community. The same can be said about race, physical composition, and nationality.

            Also, I’m sensitive to the fact you’re running a blog and there is a certain flair required for readership, gripping introductions, and narrative writing. Using an anecdote to demonstrate a point is an effective method, but rather than use it as a tool, you referenced it as a primary example of failure, when it should be just an anecdote of idiots in gaming (culture?).

            To make an analogy: You took issue to a nonsexist joke because of sexist tone in a way that I could take issue to the idea that my first amendment rights have been questioned because you’ve suggested I should not ever make a certain joke. Obviously you’re not FOR the removal of first amendment rights just as much as I’m not FOR sexism, but reading into a statement too far can have both of us wind up well past the original intention. Those people were wrong, but the joke is a joke. I would be wrong because you are not suggesting I limit my speech, but the concept of sensitivity should be more carefully considered. There are subtle but drastic differences between them..

            Although hell, maybe – you might not even be American but the point stands. I’d also like to point out I’m NOT trolling, I’m being sincere – I think you’ve made excellent points. I just think targeting humor and the idea that people should just never say a certain phrase (out of context – mind you) is missing the point. In fact, at a cursory glance (and your analytics could tell you more about how long a person is on your page) could lead to an ineffective broadcast of your true message under the visage that you just don’t like XKCD (or think they’re sexist) by someone that just drops in, reads a bit, and leaves angry.

            I will happily continue using the joke in its PROPER context at both genders non-discriminately.

          • I am seriously NOT talking about the XKCD joke about SUDO. We get it. It’s a sandwich joke about Linux permissions. It’s not actually relevant to what I’m talking about, as I stated before. It was a fairly off-the-cuff comment and not relevant to what I’m talking about – which is sexist jokes about telling someone to go and make a sandwich, and to get back in the kitchen. This is what I’m talking about. It is not devoid of sexist tropes or contextually relevant societal issues. The jokes I’m talking about are not an execution failure, they are a failure to be sensitive to what the joke means and how it makes other people feel.

            I’m pretty sure my anecdote was a) a representation of the joke I’m -talking about- throughout this entire article b) a representation of gaming culture and how it is sexist. I’m pretty sure it demonstrates my point and it gives some people insight into how it made me feel since a lot of whom I am addressing may not grasp the full emotional impact of these things. So I disagree with your assertion with how I used it or should have used it.

            I didn’t take issue to a non-sexist joke because of sexist tone (XKCD comic), I took issue to it because it’s a stupid comment that has no actual real bearing on what I’m talking about and it detracts from discussion from the ACTUAL real sexist jokes I’m talking about. It muddles the discussion and frankly, it’s a waste of text but I tend to be a little more polite usually. It kinda shows a lack of thought on the part of the person – it shows they really aren’t looking at what I’m saying and are just saying this thing that isn’t overtly sexist is something they think of when I’m talking about something harmful, frustrating and sexist. It’s an empty calorie thought.

            I’m for people not saying shit that is offensive, hurtful and exclusionary. Sorry, I’m not going to back away from that. Stopping saying these things is the first part of the whole working on getting rid of this train of thought in general in our culture – sexist culture. It’s not censorship, it’s a proactivity and empathy for our fellow human beings by not being idiots. First amendment rights regards the government censoring a person’s right to free speech. I am not the government. I am a free person making an appeal towards ethics – people should try to stamp out things in their thoughts and language that are harmful to others. This is part of the whole of social justice. Jokes aren’t inscrutable bastions, free from criticism. Jokes are very frequently how we injure people by not even caring that we have societal privileges over them.

            I know you’re not trolling. But I think your tone is incredibly condescending. I’m not missing the point. I disagree. I don’t hate XKCD. I felt the first comment posted with a comic was not germane to my point. It was not related. It’s turned into a derail now. I don’t give a shit though if people think I don’t like XKCD. I’m not in the business of soothing people’s momentary feelings on me. They can drop in, read a bit, get angry and leave all they like. Or they can read what I wrote. Either way. Not a big thing to me.

            I guess you really, really like this unrelated joke so much without much actual thought about what the article is actually about. Dang feminists telling me I can’t use some unrelated XKCD comic joke. Guess what, I don’t care. It’s not what I’m talking about.

    • It’s like dang, get up off your ass and make a fucking sandwich. Oh wait, they haven’t ever done it themselves.

      Serious talk though – it is less about sammiches and more about hearkening back to societally accepted roles for women.

  4. Apple Cider,
    I fully agree that this type of sexist language needs to go. I’ve been on and off your blog for a while since it kept showing up in language discussions and, being an English teacher and general logophile, I’ve found all of your articles – even those not on words – very interesting.

    I do have a question, though. I’m in no way defending such stupid, abusive behavior, but how do you teach (yeah, that’s my thing) stupid boys who are used to trash talking in this way not to? We can dislike a behavior all we want, but that won’t stop it.

    Trash talking is a totally normal behavior for most people, and it’s meant, ironically, to establish trust and build bonds. Psychologists of this sort of thing claim it works like “I can hurt you a little, but I won’t hurt you a lot, because we’re in a friendly relationship.”

    Since I don’t think it’s trash talking you’re upset about but careless (or even worse – intentional -) use of sexist language, how do you see correcting this problem? I do believe it can and should be addressed, but other than on a case by case basis, I’m just not sure what the first step should be.

    Great post,
    Stubborn

    • It’s tough! I think part of it is that mid-raid is not really going to be the time you’re going to get someone to wrap their mind around a new concept, so in the middle of things I would generally just say “that’s not really acceptable humor, knock it off. You can talk with me about it later if you want to.”

      After that, if they take you up on it, yeah – it’s pretty much another repetition of the long, slow process of explaining why a hurtful thing is hurtful.

    • The primary angle that this kind of language has to be addressed is in the social setting. Males have to muster the courage to discourage this kind of behavior. The reason it persists is because too few males publicly object. More males are willing to say these offensive things than there are males who are willing to tell their buddies to stop being rude. If ever an effective solution could be applied to this sort of mindset, it lies in males checking themselves.

      That said, MANY MANY females buy into this mindset as well and are just as likely to defend some idiot telling her to go make a sandwich. I know many women like this and it’s mind boggling even from a male point of view.

      It has to be discouraged where it happens. And it has to be done so publicly, clearly, and unequivocally.

      • Women doing this is called internalized sexism, and it is something I’m a lot more willing to try and teach/correct. It’s easy to constantly internalize the shitty messages we get from society about how we, and other women, should be “behaving.”

          • I’d say it’s legitimately hard and almost NOT your place as a dude to point out internalized misogyny/sexism in women. Maybe nudge some of the more astute ladies in your vicinity to help out? It is a bit poor form to enlighten a woman about something that is our problem in the first place.

          • However, if it is affecting a group you are a leader of, a blanketing “Can we tone down the disrespectful language” ?

  5. I find the whole sandwich thing so annoying I will leave group now after saying how I feel if someone has to make that joke, and some people’s crazed reactions to politely saying I would rather be referred to as she not he, the baffling part is some of these guys seem confused as to why there are no girls playing, or more likely no girls will let them know they are there.

  6. On the other side of the coin, people who spout such phrases are performing us the favor of wearing a large sign that says, “Hey! I’m an asshat! You should ignore me!” If they actually watched what they said it could take longer to ferret out the idiots in a group.

  7. I fear you may take offence to the question but I am legitimately asking because I don’t entirely get it – were their comments their attempt to follow on from your joke?

    Definately the second person after you made it clear you did not find it funny should have known better but the first one will have heard your joking response and chose to give a joking response back.

    Their choice of response whilst clearly offensive to yourself and many others is not something that is found universally offensive, before reading your post it had never occurred to me as such, it’s a pretty common response ( or make me a coffee etc) to a joke response such as yours in many peer groups I’ve been part of and has been aimed at males and females alike, basically whoever initiated the theme of humour in the first place. I have never before experienced anyone take offence on the matter.

    Again I’m not trying to cause offence by asking this, I’m clearly missing an important point, could you enlighten me?

    Luke

    • Well, the reason people don’t find it universally offensive is because a lot of people don’t really think about the things they say and what they mean. That’s what keeps this going. You shouldn’t just drop a “get back in the kitchen” joke on someone you barely know. How does that not seem rude? Was he probably hinging on what I said? Yes, probably. Does that excuse his behaviour or his guildmate’s behaviour? Not in the slightest.

      Kitchen jokes, sandwich jokes, even when aimed at men are still utilizing an idea that the feminine part of society should be in their place, being subservient and making masculine people food. It says to me, and I doubt I’m the only one who feels like this, “you are not welcome” even if you didn’t intend it that way. That’s what it is implying. Jokes are jokes but they can still encapsulate some shitty ideas. Why do we want to keep spouting shitty ideas that hurt people?

  8. A guildie once made the sandwich crack to me in a raid, jokingly.

    I said, “I AM in the kitchen making a sandwich, and kicking your ass while doing it.” (DPS meters do have a use sometimes) Nobody made that joke again.

  9. OMG OMG OMG
    Hello Apple Cider!

    Yes finally there needs to be a long discussion on the stupid sandwhich jokes…and the kitchen jokes…and the laundry jokes…and the oven jokes.

    It’s even WORSE when it’s coming from a group of Bros. They all high-five each other while the rest of us (women) die in silence and mortification :S
    …Although usually I’ll say something like Ballz need to GTFO and STFU, but when it’s 4 against 1, the situation makes my pews like water off a duck’s back .

  10. Is that a US cultural thing? I’ve been playing on EU servers last 5 years, and so far when i finally air being female i’d usually equal treatment (barring one or two weirdos who had to be firmly discouraged). I dont remember ever being told to go to the kitchen / make a sandwich or coffee.

    Though i have to admit I have seen it touted on forums, but never in game.

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  12. Ugh. I agree with you, the sandwich jokes need to die. Really my reaction to them is to feel weary– they’re not funny, they’re coughing dust, so why won’t they die? I was treated to several variations of the sandwich joke and general women = unintelligent jokes when I went to play D&D with a friend of a friend for the first time. It was really difficult because I was trying so hard to not be nervous and maybe make some friends (I have fairly bad social anxiety) and “be cool” about it, especially since I was a guest in the main insultor’s house, that I didn’t really know how to react.

    • Ugh, that really sucks. :( Why are people so terrible, even in real life? Sitting in a room with people making shitty jokes at me would make me panic to the max.

  13. I’m curious about 2 things here…
    1) Is there a running list of what is socially defined as a “sexist” joke vs a “non-sexist” joke?

    I ask this only because I am fairly certain anything can be interpreted to be an offense to anyone if you want to feel offended by it.

    2) At what point are you going to accept my statements to you that we are dealing with an aggregation of 15-25 yr old males who are in fact either not mature/wise enough to know when to bite their tongues, nor see the eventual outcome when they don’t.

    Now…I don’t like the make me a sammich jokes not because they are sexist…but because they are dumb. My wife and I share the cooking in our house. My parents did as well (still do), and in my mother’s household growing up, my grandfather did ALL the cooking. A running joke about my meme (G.r.h.s.) was that she couldn’t boil water. She’d have admitted that to you herself tbh. My grandfather on the other hand….awesome cook! But back to my wife and I…we both spend equal time in the kitchen. We both spend equal time cleaning said kitchen. I find it comical when someone makes that “kitchen, sammich” nonsense at me (and yes they have), simply because my first thought is NOT “*GASP* I’m offended”…its, “Hey, I could go for a snack. So…you want turkey or roast beef?” The very notion that cooking is “woman’s work” is a fallacy. For generations the career of a chef was considered “man’s work”. And the notion of preparing food for someone has always been about good hospitality, not servantship. When you enter our home, my wife and I will be very quick to offer both food and drink as a sign of welcome. The joke is dumb.

    What I am puzzled by is this…why do you let this bother you so much?

    Simply put…the fool who tells you to make a sammich is expecting a response! In some cases he or she wants you to respond with another joke back (akin to a “Your momma” throw down), in others he/she want you to be pissed off by it. They want to get under your skin. I had a guild mate who was just the epitome of this…he WANTED the reaction…he jonesed for it! He would say ANYTHING to any MALE player that he though would push their button: racial, religious, sexual, any topic, any offense…just to get the rise out of them. NOTICE…I said to any male. If he knew you were a woman….oh ho…he was sweet as apple pie. Is that any better? Is that person an ok person because he treats female players nicely and hammers, berates, and abuses male ones?

    You are an intelligent person…Why do you let fools and their foolish behavior bother you? They are fools..they don’t know any better, and I doubt they ever will.

    • There’s a lot of stupid shit you just let fall out of your gaping noise hole, so I’m just going to focus on the main one that jumps out at me.

      “The very notion that cooking is “woman’s work” is a fallacy. For generations the career of a chef was considered “man’s work”.”

      Cooking at home = women’s work. Cooking as a career = men’s work. See how easy it is to break down the pathetic logical fallacy you’re trying to employ? It works for other things too! Mending = women. FASHION DESIGN??!! = MEN!

      basically, you keep coming here and commenting and I don’t know why, save to scold someone who’s actually affected by sexism into shutting up because she makes you feel bad about your privilege. weh weh.

      • “There’s a lot of stupid shit you just let fall out of your gaping noise hole” Well, that was a very nice comment to make. thanks.

        “you keep coming here and commenting and I don’t know why”
        So…I’m not “allowed” here or to read Apple’s blog? Ok, good to know going forward. The blog is an exclusive rights thing and only open to a select group of people…I am not one of said people according to you.

        “scold someone who’s actually affected by sexism into shutting up because she makes you feel bad about your privilege.”
        I am not scolding apple in any way. I am asking how long will she continue to expect a group of people to change when they clearly aren’t. I am saying expect the foolishness and don’t be surprised by it. Have you ever once heard me condone the bad/poor behavior of some of our fellow players? Absolutely not.

        Additionally, what privilege are you even referencing? Am I male…yes. Does that entitle me to some special treatment not applicable to women…absolutely not. Don’t judge me based on my gender tyvm, and assume I am one of the immature persons that clearly dont think before they speak.

        • “Additionally, what privilege are you even referencing? Am I male…yes. Does that entitle me to some special treatment not applicable to women…absolutely not.”

          this is the kind of thing I was talking about in my first comment – male privilege is a thing and it’s the kind of thing that allows ideas like “women=kitchen, men=chefs” to perpetuate. there is literally nothing different between men and women cooking but for men it’s a career and a noble act while for women it’s something that’s just expected and joked about when they’re in spaces not deemed appropriate for women.

          • Coming late into the game here, I am puzzled because it appears to me that Quori’s initial comment was affirming your upset. Your upset is justified because the comment impacted you. As simple as that. Reading Quori’s initial response, It appears that Quori was empathizing with you. Was that wrong to do?

            The venomous and insulting response from Mythrai is one I expect from a male who’s trying to ram his opinion down your throat. Quori was voicing his opinion that the joke is stupid, it’s lame and incredibly outdated. He was merely saying – Don’t let it bother you so much.

            In reading your response, I gather you don’t want people telling you how to feel and inform you on what you should let bother you. Having your feathers ruffled at the audacity of such a message is entirely your right, but rather than assume the worst or take it to be a condescending attitude, might I suggest you try to see the good in the message? Dealing with such dingbats in the game is incredibly frustrating, but acknowledging their dimwittedness makes for a better gaming experience.

            But then again, here I am doing what you hate in the first place. Trying to influence how you feel. Take my comment just as a suggestion from one gal to another.

          • @Iyawo

            You and Quori are missing the point, man. I’m not trying to be rude, but believe me …you’re missing the entire point. In conversations like this, best to try to absorb and understand. Criticizing is possibly the worst you can do as it serves as a demonstration of the sexist attitudes on discussion. I know you don’t see the irony in coming into a conversation about the sexist and offensive jibes men throw at women and, during that discussion, telling the woman why she is wrong or not seeing things clearly …but believe me, it’s present.

            Just try to understand that and move on.

    • 1.) There is no list, I’d hope that people can learn and educate themselves about what could be read as sexist, and if you fuck up and say something sexist, that you apologize and learn from it. Could anything be taken offensively, yes. Does that absolve your responsibility to not say stupid things? Nope. Walking into a conversation with the idea that oh god, people just LOOK for things to get upset about means you don’t actually understand a jot about where hurt feelings come from. It automatically says “I don’t care about your feelings, because I feel you’re just bringing them on to get MAD at me.”

      2.) News flash: I’m never going to accept your points because you
      . are a condescending person,
      . you miss my point,
      . you don’t get what I’m saying,
      . you’re being offensively ignorant to what I’m saying, what other women on this BLOG are saying and how we feel,
      .you’re translating your wife’s experiences into real/true for every woman,
      .you’re derailing with discussion about actual cooking when the joke isn’t about cooking
      . and you are basically pointing out to me that I am just “getting upset” and “letting people bother me” and effectively saying with a lot of lot of lot words that you think I’m stupid, despite your protests that I’m smart.

      I know why say things to stir things up, you are not coming with new or revelational material here, and I’m allowed to feel hurt by sexism, talk about it and want it to stop. Your opinion is not important here, your feelings on my feelings is not important, I don’t have to accept anything you say because you are in fact being insulting and rude about things you’ve never experienced.

      Sexism is sexism, whether it is benevolent or harmful, end of story. This shit comes from people young and old, this is not some “young person’s problem” that only boisterous young men do. They say it because they can, because it hurts, because they don’t have to think about it. And they should shoulder the responsibility for being assholes, I shouldn’t have to constantly work on NOT getting upset when you even yourself say that their intent is TO upset me.

      If you can’t contribute to these discussions without checking yourself or not being condescending and telling me how I should feel, then you can show yourself the door.

    • Whoa, hi there!

      1) Yeah! Bigotry takes its “humor” from so-called socially normative beliefs that are specifically derogatory to oppressed groups for the entertainment of people who are not in those groups. It necessarily involves an existing power structure that inflicts the jokes from a top-down perspective, contributing to further oppression and bigotry. Racism and sexism both depend on this existing hierarchy for LAUGHS.

      NB: Women making gendered jokes about cis white men and people of colour making jokes about straight whites are discriminatory, but not racist or sexist, as the jokes have no power to oppress or harm through current power structures.

      2) You advocate silence in the face of bigotry, and then wring your hands about young men who don’t know anything. Young men have had literally thousands of years to sort this shit out, and now we’re going to tell you how to do it.

      Sit down and shut the fuck up. You clearly didn’t read the “BEFORE POSTING” material if you think it was a good idea to come in here and tell women they’re too stupid to know what a huge favour you’re doing them by deconstructing their experiences using the interpreted experience of A Woman You Know – as though that’s relevant to anything?

      • +1

        I think it’s ok to ask questions, but yeah Quori and company don’t seem to comment in order to understand something or add value. Thank you for moderating your blog. I enjoy the point of views and lessons learned in a constructive environment.

  14. I haven’t ever had the sandwich comment, but I have had someone flatly refuse to believe my gender. (At the end of a PuG a tank said “Nice run gentlemen…or ladies?” and I said “Lady in my case;” one of the others went “I don’t believe you.”) And my reaction was 1) I’m not sure why you think I’d care what you think since 2) I’ve been pretty sure about my gender for a long time but 3) I really have no clue why you would disbelieve me – it seems awfully random to doubt my gender statement when you have no evidence either way. I don’t get the presumption of maleness that a lot of gamers have. It might be because I gamed with my Dad since I was a little girl; it just seemed normal to me. And in those days it was actually quite a bit rarer than now – given all the information on the increase in female gamers, why would anyone doubt them? I’m sure you get bad female gamers, just like you get bad male ones. But why would you make a generalization?

    The human race baffles me sometimes.

  15. First off: Lol at people not getting it and attempting a guilt trip by apologizing for posting in the first place, aren’t you precious.

    Most of the time, thanks to depression kicking my ass, I don’t have the spoons to call people out – but when I do, it’s pretty… yeah.

    Sexist jokes are only funny to neckbeards and dudebros, people that are generally gigantic douchebags. Someone saying something sexist to me is a signal that I need to troll them and/or rip them a new arsehole.

    Nice doesn’t work.

    So sick of sexist jokes. So, so sick of them.

  16. Pingback: My favourite part is when people I’m senior to say this to me AT WORK. [ 6D ]

  17. Good lord, you lose your shit over a joke that bad? I bet you’re so much fun to be around playing these games treading on egg shells around Captain Buzzkill. It’s banter, people playing games in groups usually make jokes at each other and this wasn’t even personal. I swear the world needs to harden the fuck up.

    Also, by the time you wrote this rant you could have made the whole damn guild a sammich.

    • The people who are fun to play with are capable of making fun jokes at each other’s’ expense, not rude comments about the expected subservience of whatever woman happens to be nearest. Furthermore, if you’re the kind of fella that can only laugh when marginalizing others, you and all of your friends are definitely not as funny as you think.

    • Rich, you are clearly plagued by the “tough guise” (google it as you probably have no idea what I am referring to) and “harden up”? Really? If we “harden up” and stop talking about these issues, then they will never change. Ever. It IS personal, by the way, and by insisting that it is “banter”, you are just reinforcing and perpetuating this disgusting, ignorant kind of behavior.

  18. It isn’t just the guys on Wow that are that way.
    I’ve ran into several on both forms of EQ who are just as obnoxious in their attitudes towards women in general.
    Some of them also have this idea if the gal is not as hot as a photoshopped super model, that supposedly that gal does not belong anywhere near a computer.
    I’ve had one guy claim that NO gals has ever played EQ. That only guys play it. And if you are claiming to be a gal, That there is something seriously wrong with you.
    That last one came after one time someone called me a ‘dude’. And I had replied “dudette”.

  19. The comment is only sexist because you perceived it that way. When you asked “what do I look like, a servant?” and the attempted humorous reply was “Well then, can you go to the kitchen and make me a sandwich?”, the only thing that made it sexist was your reaction. By definition a “servant” is neither inherently male or female. You may recall Alfred bringing Bruce Wayne food in the Dark Knight movies. Was it sexist for him to expect Alfred to do his duties? Not in the slightest. Since you appear to have rather thin skin perhaps it would be wise to avoid making attempts at humour where you will be reading replies and scouring them for any perceived slight. For the record, I am a woman and your little rant is inane and pointless.

    • No, I’m pretty sure I perceived it that way because it is sexist. The joke predicates on men already having structural power to order women around, especially in the home in a domestic fashion. It’s a thinly veiled reference to being able to do that in real life, and in turn, denigrating the woman that it’s directed at.

      Also Alfred is a paid servant and also a dude and that analogy isn’t even relevant. Also this blog post is very old.

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